Esports & AI with Intel's Snow White!

In this episode, Rob is joined by two guests: Katelyn Schoenhofer, a technology coach and an eSports enthusiast, and Snow White, a leader of education sales strategy at Intel. We discuss the following topics:

• How eSports can benefit students in terms of academic, social, emotional, and career development. We share their personal experiences and stories of how eSports has transformed the lives of many students who were previously disengaged or disconnected from school.
• How AI can enhance learning by simplifying the daily tasks, freeing up cognitive space, and providing personalized feedback and support. We also talk about the ethical and technical challenges of AI in education, and how to prepare students for a future that is constantly changing and evolving.
• How eSports and AI are related and can complement each other. We mention some examples of how AI can help eSports players improve their skills, strategies, and communication, and how eSports can provide a platform for students to learn and apply AI concepts and tools.

Transcript

Rob Dickson: 0:13

Welcome, everyone to our next edition of what the EdTech with smokin Rob, today is a bit of a different day, smoke had something come up. So I have my friend Caitlin on with me as CO hosts, Caitlin, once you introduce yourself.

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 0:29

Hi, everyone, I'm Caitlin I work for which sub public schools and I am a Vils coach. And for those of you don't know Avila says I'm like a technology coach at Truesdale Middle School.

Rob Dickson: 0:41

And today we have an amazing friend, a friend who I've known for a long time and very much an innovator in the industry. Her name is Snow White Snow, you want to introduce yourself?

Snow White: 0:55

Sure. So first of all, that is my real name is Snow White, and I am now at Intel, and I'm leading the education sales strategy for North America say US and Canada is now my territory, just a little territory.

Rob Dickson: 1:12

And today, you know, I love the topic of of eSports, and AI and education. And I have two of the most amazing people that can talk around that today. You know, Kayla, and once you first start and just talking about kind of your experience with eSports so far, and how it's impacted you and snow, then we'll go to you.

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 1:35

Sure. Yeah, so I first got involved in eSports, just through a little thing called a gaming club at Southeast High School. And then our students wanted to compete at a higher level. So we started to compete in eSports, just as a southeast High School small group. And with the districts that esports has grown into a very large and competitive organization in which, which sa public schools are on the map for national titles in a very, very competitive way. And so we have taken kids to Nationals, we have traveled to Kansas City to compete with colleges and professional teams and held our own in those situations to. And it's just been really amazing to see all of my kids that have interacted in these programs that weren't really connected to our school before eSports came along. And they weren't in any kind of sports or any activities, and now they're deeply involved in the school. They're the kids that everybody wants to talk to. They're the kids that have the expertise. And a lot of my kids had never thought about going to college. And now all of a sudden they're getting scholarships and offers and to go do bigger things. And they really ever thought that they could just through video games and eSports. So it's been a pretty impactful experience to see that development and that growth. And then just just to be a part of those those kids journeys. So we

Snow White: 3:02

love it. Well, Caitlyn is just have to say I feel like a proud mama, when you talk about what what's happening in in your district. And the reason I say that is back long ago, Rob was in town for South by edu. And we were having lunch together. And I think we got out several napkins, and started sketching on what eSports might look like, or the district. And I think, Rob, we're only supposed to meet for like 45 minutes, and it turned into like three hours, we were so excited about the possibilities. And the one thing I know about Rob is once he gets an idea in his head, he is gonna go with it. And it's not just like, we're gonna go, we're gonna just like dip our toe into it. He's gonna go big and hearing you talk is just proof of how big he went. So I just, I felt like I was, you know, just part of that, you know, brainstorming of what's now in the district. So I was just, we brings very warm and fuzzy hearing you talk about it. But yeah, I mean, my start really in eSports was really thinking about more about the academic side of it. So we had some districts as is pre pandemic. And back when Robin I met, it was right before the pandemic. I mean, literally like a week or so before everything shut down. But pre pandemic, were having schools, school districts come and we would have conversations around, what would eSports look like? And we knew about yes, there's the hardware, and there's the teams to think about. But there were so many pathways that this led into the academic side. And that's really what inspired me to get more involved and really helped build out the program. I was at Dell before I came to Intel and you know, what would that program look like from an academic side as well as an Esports side? And so we would, when I talk to school districts, I'd say are you looking at an esports team, are you looking at Esports program, because they're very different on how you approach and, and so I was really passionate about seeing the possibilities that how eSports can be brought into CTE classes and, and kids are getting excited about learning, because eSports was attached to it, and then knowing that there was gonna be this competitive side, too. And so yeah, it started off as just thinking about the academic side. And then, when a pandemic hit, my daughter started gaming a lot more. And hearing from a female gamers perspective, really opened up a lot of discussions that I hadn't thought about having with others on what is it like for a female gamer, because I was seeing from her eyes is very different. And knowing that maybe she might be playing in a school one day, and because she was playing co ed, and probably be co ed in school. And so that's really I was I was very, you know, intrigued about this side of it. Now, I'm thinking about girls who gaming, which was another program that we had in the district and, and what that would look like and inspiring females to go into STEM, but also be competitive in eSports. And then just hearing some of the struggles she went through as like, okay, now I need to be an advocate, too. So not only do Am I inspire to bring eSports into school districts, but how can I be an advocate for those that may be underrepresented or feel like they don't have a voice in eSports? And so that's, that's really where my lenses when I think about eSports is, is really how do we level the playing field, so that everyone can feel like they're being an, you know, in this competitive game, but then they also felt like there's so many college and career pathways available to meet because of eSports.

Rob Dickson: 7:09

Yeah, I saw appreciate you talking about that time right there at the pandemic, I remember landing in Austin SXSW. Edu was supposed to start and they canceled it, the moment I did my taxi. And so ended up spending that time together, I still use the graphic that we talked about from Arizona State University, the six levels of problem solving still still discuss that today. I think what's amazing about an Esports program, is the ability for a student to fail sail sail until they succeed, and there's not many iterations in society in life, that gives you the opportunity. I remember growing up, you know, obviously, a long time ago before technology and smartphones and all that, and I had the ability to sail sail as a kid because, you know, I, not many things were known, right? I just everything was face to face. I you know, you got leniency today, I feel like, as you build a digital footprint, there's less. There's less ability for that type of failure to happen. And and I think, you know, there's some lessons to be learned around that. And I say, in a learning process, really building strategy and problem solving. I think eSports is a great way of doing that with a set of kids. What do you guys think about how in how could this impact learning in some way? And I'll go first?

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 8:45

Yeah, I think I think like you said, the design of it's okay to fail and try again and learn and progress is a model that needs to be brought back into classrooms of all content areas, it doesn't just have to be, you know, our esports or our curriculum around it. Because it's building that resiliency, and it's building those problem solving skills, and what businesses are looking for today has changed. We don't need assembly line workers who can do the same routine things and repeat steps and just get really good at repeating those steps. We need problem solvers. We need innovators, creative thinkers. And so putting that type of mentality into classrooms is what's really going to project those kids on the right track to be those employees that we're looking for in the future. Because our future isn't going to look the same as it does now. We're preparing kids for a world that we don't even know what it looks like. And so using those skills, to prepare them for that new world, I think is the key to get a good education. Now, Rob, you

Snow White: 9:52

hit on something about fail, and that in gaming, kids feel comfortable failing. But in education, and it's not just kids. Kids don't want to fail. Teachers don't want to bail. principals don't want to fail. We don't have an A environment that allows for failure. And so if I had this magic wand, that's what I would do is create this secure environment that says, we all know we learn the most from failing. That's, that's really when those moments stick with us when we're like, when we struggle. But we don't embrace that in our education system. And so that's where I would want that magic one is, it's okay. And, you know, we don't, we no longer have eighth grade, ninth grade, 10th grade, it's all competency based. And so because this is where I see where kids start getting tired of, if you fail eighth grade, you don't get to start from where you failed, you start all over again. And if we did that in gaming, they would like, they made me do that one time. And again, like, no, no, I made it to level 33. I want to start from level 33. It just wouldn't in the game wouldn't survive in. And but we expect that for our kids is like we're gonna make you go through everything, you know, and then you're gonna get to the part that you didn't know. And hopefully you get it this time. And so that's where, when we talk about learning is how do we create a safe environment where it's okay to fail. And again, it's not just our kids, our teachers and our principals, and standardized testing, as put that pressure on us where we don't feel like it's okay to fail. And that's what I would want to change. So that's where I feel like we're gaming could benefit and learning is if we could embrace some of those methods that they have to bring you back to the game. Let's bring them back to education, and make them feel like I'm learning I need to, I'm going to start from where I need to learn to move forward.

Rob Dickson: 12:02

Caitlin, and I had a conversation just earlier about collaboration, like how kids collaborate today. And when you the, I would say the biggest aha moment for me and just watching eSports competition was like how groups create their own shorthanded language, how, you know, how they identify roles, just wish in one another and, and build those intrinsically. There's, there's something about that that's very different than and it's really student driven, instead of teacher classroom driven. What are some of the things that you see in that landscape that are hostile to you?

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 12:53

I mean, I would first off, just say, if there are parents that are watching that have kids that game, I just encourage you to go down and listen to their communication skills when they are playing online. Because their ability to receive feedback from a peer, their ability to give feedback, their ability to problem solve their ability to deal with conflict resolution, because they don't always agree on top of it. And so they have to decide within a split second on which path are we going to follow? What thing are we going to try? And there is no time for this back and forth argument. I mean, there's just time for leadership followership for making decisions. And then after we've made that decision, they have to adapt to whether or not that was the right decision. So just their ability to move through conversations, while problem solving and doing conflict resolution is just unparalleled, and any other scenario that they truly get to do on a regular basis.

Snow White: 13:55

Yeah, I mean, there's so many aha moments, it's hard to nail it down to just just one or even a couple. But, you know, I did mention earlier about that. There is a difference when you're a female gamer, once they know that you're female. I didn't really think that, you know, I was just thought, Oh, we're past that. And then when I heard it, I was like, oh, you know, when they were asked, you know, when when daughters constantly ask, Are you a girl when playing because they can't see. I'm like, it doesn't bother her right now. But I know why they're asking that. And I think eventually they will. And now she's learned to respond to that talk to some other female gamers. So what do you do when they asked that? And they, they gave me some responses and my daughter's favorite, or like, she says, No, I'm an alien, you know, and you're like, Well, how do you respond to that one? And then the other one was, they said, Why are you scared? You know, so you're female. So I was like, Eric girl, and I was like, Oh, that's a good one, too. But my daughter's favorite is the alien. So that that was an aha moment. But then the, I think, two other things where the scholarships, how much is out there. I think there was like 16 million last year in scholarships available to go to college around I'm a sports and it's not just to play on a team, it's we need scholarships for coaches, we need scholarships to do AV to help us run a tournament to be our marketing manager. And so I think that is amazing those given us opportunities that were kids may have not thought I have any pathway to go to college because I can't afford it, this has given them that opportunity. And then the second one leads into the hundreds and probably 1000s of jobs that are out there in eSports, that also pay well. But what I like too, is that you may do marketing for your college team. But then you may not go to a pro esports team and do marketing. But now that you have that skill set, you can go to any Fortune 500 company or go wherever you might want to work and bring those skills. So I feel like eSports is also another avenue to to almost be an intern and get those skills and then be able to apply them to something else that they want to do.

Rob Dickson: 16:13

It's very much an applied learning activity, right? Where Yeah, about students actually tying it right to it. And big names are I mean, we just signed a contract with McDonald's gaming last year, and they sponsor our activities. So there are some very big names and that in this industry, you know, I can't help but think of the elephant in the room of AI and how it might impact this whole process in large language models. How do you guys think AI and large language models will impact learning and even the possibility of having strategy and other things being helped by this new tool that we have in society? Caitlin?

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 17:08

So I think when we look at AI, we have to think about how it's going to simplify the daily minutia. And so the basic things, to free up our cognitive space to be able to do the hard things. So I think there's a fear, of course that AI is going to make it to where we don't think which I would totally argue the opposite, is that AI is going to give us the ability to think about more things and more complex and more creative things. So moving, you know, in an education model, for more students know the dates of a war, students are going to understand the impacts of that. And they're going to understand how can I apply that knowledge to the future? I don't need to memorize all of these specific facts and just historical information or procedural information, I have something that can do that for me, so that I can really think about how can I use this information to change the world? How can I work on sustainability? How can I focus on the big problems versus just the little thing? So I think once we get past, you know, the early introduction of it, that it's really going to change the way that students can impact our community as a whole.

Snow White: 18:25

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was a good one. Caitlin. Yeah, I

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 18:29

agree with you. I

Snow White: 18:30

think one is, well, first of all, AI is just so big. I mean, there's just so many facets to it. And I think a lot of people think of just the chat GPT. But then there's just so many other things that and really, we've been using AI for a while. We just about a year ago, we all just started talking about it like oh, wow, it is in our world, and it's everywhere. But I do I was last week, actually, I spent three days with a group and that's all we focused on was aI like, what is Microsoft doing? AI for education? What does Google do an AI for education? And we're speaking from, you know, what is Intel doing an AI in education. And you know, what, what a watch away with is like, it is so big. There are so many aspects to think about when it comes to AI. So it is like, how is it going to impact learning? And I agree with you, Caitlin, if it could just just take out some of that minutia for teachers. I mean, burnout is real. It's teachers. I feel for my try to bring them as many treats as possible. My whole family, we're educators, I get it, but I've never I never saw the burnout in my parents. Like I see the burnout now. And, and I think part of it is just dealing with these daily tasks all the time that just take up time. But they have to do it because it's either a mandate or I just got the if I don't do it this way. I don't know if they learn the content. And so I really hope that AI eliminate some of that and we're seeing that right now. We Uh, one of the folks from Intel was, was showing a demo, and it's in practice right now. But it was all these cameras on the student completing this experiment. So as a hands on experiment, and the camera was able to see, are they putting the weights on on the scale in the right area and doing the measurement the correct way. And instead of watching, you know, 100 hours of video, a, I was able to like scan it all, and go, Yep, all of these work, correct. Oh, here's one that needs improvement. They didn't quite do though. And I thought, Oh, what a lifesaver. And he was even speaking from a professor's point of view is like, I have so many papers, I have to read that after a while it just, you start blurring A goes, if I could have AI, scan these papers, get the topics and then go back to the ones that need improvement, then I could spend my time where it's needed on the students that need that extra help. And so that's where I would love to see AI help take some of this burnout from our teachers, and bring that citement back. And also, and this is something that's another passion of mine besides eSports. And we even talked about the SEL piece of eSports. Because that's another whole thing that I love about the eSports. But kids are struggling right now with the pandemic really did a number on them. And mental health needs to be number one. And if AI can come in and help a teacher, free up that time so that she or he can say wait a minute, this is you know, Jacqueline is not acting the way she has normally the past five days, or I've been reading some of her documents, and they say they have a darker tone than they have. I mean, teachers AI will never replace that from a teacher of knowing their student. And but they have burnout, and they're so tired, and they're having to deal with all these different tasks that they just don't have that time to, to see those red flags. And, man, if I here's my wand again, you know, what can I do to you know, change everything, I would love AI to be able to free up the time for teachers to really hone in on mental health for our students.

Rob Dickson: 22:29

You know, I'm so glad that you talked about SEL, especially with EA Sports because I just brought up some of our findings, we had Wichita State University do a year long study of our esports program. And out of that one of the things that they identified was the connectedness of the kids grew at such a large capacity just during one year that the kids felt were connected to the school, they felt supported by the school and in which that they had never felt before. I think I think one of the things that was lost during the pandemic was connectedness, of school and community. And I think the more activities we can do like that together. I think the more connected our our whole society will be right? Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's Yes. Well, thank you.

Snow White: 23:28

I was just gonna say, regarding AI, I mean, the things that for us to think about too, is just, there's so many possibilities that we're gonna see in education. I feel like we're in this weird moment of and this is dating myself, but I remember bringing the Internet to schools. And we had a lot of schools that like do not bring the internet, we we are not going to open it up. We will not have the internet. There's evil things out there with the Internet. And now we lap I mean, I think Caitlyn does dying over here. But that really was a reality. And then there was the cutting edge ones like bringing it down. There's so much for us to learn. And I feel AI is a little bit that way where we have some CTOs that are like, I think I'm gonna shut this thing now. And then some CTOs like Rob is gonna find every possible way to bring it in for the benefit of the students. And so I think that that is something first of all, for us to remember. Because there is an ethics piece of it, that we're going to have to make sure kids are aware of, and it's going to change the landscape of not only education, but everything. I mean, with the election coming up, we're prepared. Like how do we know if we're seeing that person really taught? Like, even right now, Rob, how do you know it's me snow and it's not an AI avatar that I've created. So I think there's gonna be a whole ethics piece of it. And then thinking about the technology that supports that because a lot of folks think of AI is all in the cloud. But Intel that's where a lot of we're making those investments and development is AI on the P See? And so I think there's just gonna be a lot of considerations, not only how is it used, but what do we use it on? And are we getting the best experience with the systems we have in place?

Rob Dickson: 25:22

And we've had so many parallels. So this morning, and Kayla was in, we have a private se cohort that we're working on our SD certification. So the reflection, my recollection was, I remember in 1999, my first district bring internet to the district, like the person setting up email, I said, and I think AI is even bigger than that. Yeah. And it's just so hard to understand what five years from now looks like or 10 years from now looks like, like, we're looking at redoing district strategic plan, and I'm gonna build a new technology plan that goes around that, but man, that there's more uncertainty today than I've ever felt. I, yeah, sky's the limit. But there's so much uncertainty with that as well.

Snow White: 26:13

Yep. Yeah. That is funny how aligned we are today. It's almost like I can read your brain. Rob. This is, this is why we had a three hour meeting about eSports. We just, we just keep going. But yeah, no, that's, I am excited. I am excited to see what leaders like you do in education around AI. Because I do feel like, there's just gonna be amazing. Just opportunities for teachers, leaders, students, the sky is the limit, and we're going to fail at some of these. But that's okay. I mean, it's it. And I did not coin this. But I someone taught it to me and I love is the fail stands for First attempt in learning. And I'm like, we should always remember that we're learning. We're going to fail, and we're going to learn.

Rob Dickson: 27:04

I love that. Well, snow thanks so much, Caitlin. Thank you. And guys, till next time. Awesome. Thank

Snow White: 27:14

you. It was so much fun. Thank you for inviting me and, and I look forward to hearing more podcasts from you all. Awesome. Thanks.

Katelyn Schoenhofer: 27:23

Thanks, guys. They